Transcript of Exploring Nondual Shaiva Tantra, with Christopher Wallis

Right here is the audio of this podcast

Michael Taft: Welcome to Deconstructing Your self, the podcast for meta-modern mutants considering meditation, hardcore Dharma, neuroscience, the Ministry for the Future, predictive processing, Vajrayana, nonduality, awakening, and far, far more. My identify is Michael Taft, your host on the podcast, and on this episode, I’m talking with Christopher Wallis. Christopher Wallis, also called Hareesh, is a Sanskritist and scholar-practitioner of classical Tantra, with thirty years of expertise. He was initiated by a conventional Indian guru on the age of 16 and acquired schooling at yoga ashrams each in India and the West. He holds a number of levels, together with an MPhil in classical Indian religions from Oxford, and a PhD in Sanskrit from UC Berkeley. Hareesh is the writer of Tantra Illuminated: The Philosophy, Historical past, and Follow of a Timeless Custom, and likewise of The Recognition Sutras, a translation, and commentary on a 1000-year-old masterpiece on experiential recognition of oneself as a direct expression of common divine consciousness. And now, with out additional ado, I provide the episode that I name “Exploring Nondual Shaiva Tantra, with Christopher Wallis,” aka Hareesh.

Michael Taft: Hareesh, Welcome to the Deconstructing Your self podcast.

Christopher Wallis: Thanks.

MT: I’m so glad to have you ever right here. After all, most individuals most likely in the event that they know of you’ll know you by your English identify, which is Christopher Wallis. However I’m, after all going to name you Hareesh for this interview. 

So I first came upon about your work listening to by varied college students and fellow practitioners and so forth a bit of bit about it. However ultimately, I obtained my arms on a replica of Tantra Illuminated, which was a tremendous expertise, actually a cool guide. However then I noticed you had one other one referred to as The Recognition Sutras. And it was like, Effectively, I like Christopher Wallis’s books so let’s do that out. And I obtained a replica of The Recognition Sutras and it fairly actually blew my thoughts. I had no concept such a textual content existed. From Tantra Illuminated, I had heard of it, and I knew that there have been Nondual Shaiva Tantra traditions. However nonetheless, I used to be unprepared for simply how superb that’s. 

So I’m simply going to throw it on the market and say, are you able to give a private background of what Nondual Shaiva Tantra is and what The Recognition Sutras are? Or the textual content is? I do know, that’s a big subject, however are you able to type of orient us to what we’re speaking about right here?

CW: Yeah, so I’ll summarize it this fashion: Tantra is a religious motion, which started within the 5 lots of or the sixth century, in our Western calendar, and unfold all through all of South Asia, initially, in addition to later East Asia and Southeast Asia. And I name it a religious motion as a result of Tantra itself isn’t a faith, however fairly a approach of doing faith, one would possibly say. So all the most important religions in South Asia at the moment developed a tantric part, that’s to say, Tantra first appeared inside the faith referred to as Shaivism, which is the faith of Shiva and Shakti, now subsumed into Hinduism, and that’s been true for the final seven or eight hundred years. After which it propagated from there into Buddhism and Vaishnavism, and so forth. 

So all of those religions instantiated the Tantric part. That means to say, one may very well be a practitioner of those religions in a non-Tantric mode or in a Tantric mode. So simply to be clear, one may very well be a Buddhist or a Tantric Buddhist, and the distinction there concerned taking a type of larger degree of initiation that gave one entry to teachings and practices, that have been past the frequent core of faith. And what’s attention-grabbing is that the Tantric practices have a lot the identical kind in whichever spiritual custom they seem. So though Buddhism and Shaivism, for instance, have many various doctrines, and philosophies, the Tantric practices themselves are generally even nearly an identical in these two totally different spiritual contexts. And that’s why it’s applicable to consider Tantra as a religious motion that unfold by these varied religions.

MT: Let me simply interrupt for a second and say, as you understand, I’ve a background in Hindu Tantrism, and did lots of practices in that model. And I used to be shocked, truthfully, I used to be used to doing all these practices in Sanskrit and, and going by the order of practices and so forth. And after I obtained concerned in Vajrayana, so Buddhist Tantra, I already understood every part they have been doing, at the very least on the ritual degree, possibly the philosophy behind it’s totally different, however the practices have been nearly an identical. I used to be simply shocked.

CW: Precisely. And over time, a few of these similarities turned a bit of bit much less apparent. There have been sure divergences within the final seven 800 years. However on the interval Tantra was flourishing–which was in regards to the yr 800 to 1200 of our calendar when it was maximally influential. Then yeah, we see the identical actual ritual applied sciences, not solely ritual, however by way of the inside yogas, the inside practices of visualization and deity yoga and all this type of factor have been actually an identical, however with totally different names and kinds, proper? So, after all, a Buddhist is invoking Vairocana, or Akshobhya, or a Buddhist Bodhisattva, and a Shaiva is invoking Shiva below varied Tantric names, or the goddess, you understand, so the names and kinds are totally different, however the actual apply, the ritual expertise, we would say whether or not inside or outer, was the identical. 

So it’s fascinating, and Tantric research is a reasonably new area. It’s been flourishing in educational circles for the final 50 years. And the outcomes of that analysis can be making its approach little by little to the practitioner context, which is vital as a result of lots of Vajrayana practitioners, for instance, didn’t even understand that there was this frequent ritual syntax as students generally name it. And that many of those Tantric practices, if not most, really derived from the Shaiva custom, to make use of the proper Sanskrit adjective.

So, Nondual Shaiva Tantra is one thing that emerged within the mid-Ninth century. That’s to say, a type of Tantric apply that was embedded in a nondual philosophy. And this developed over time till it turned actually fairly a classy imaginative and prescient of actuality, wherein all these deities that you simply work with in Tantric apply weren’t seen anymore as supernatural individuals that one might transact with, however fairly as icons of essence. The place every of the deities instantiated some side of our common essence nature, that’s to say, of the character of consciousness itself. So the deities have been understood to specific features of that consciousness by which all acutely aware beings are acutely aware, that consciousness which instantiates as the attention of every sentient being. 

So Nondual Shaiva Tantra ultimately developed right into a kind which some students say is even atheistic within the sense that there isn’t any God separate from this consciousness. However this consciousness is known to be trans-individual, and due to this fact, totally different from how individuals would ordinarily conceive of consciousness. As a result of the extraordinary perspective, you understand, it’s my consciousness versus your consciousness. And right here we’re understanding that there’s one trans-individual consciousness. The metaphor is usually used, that each one issues are seen by the sunshine of the solar, even when it’s at some take away, proper, as a result of if a lamp is lit, the gas of that lamp is the saved vitality of the solar. And so the truth is, all illumination is that very same elementary vitality, and that’s used as a type of analogy for this imaginative and prescient of actuality, wherein consciousness is singular. 

And but we nonetheless invoke these deities as a result of we don’t know ourselves in our true nature or in our deepest nature. And the deities serve to point to us in varied methods, one thing in regards to the vastness, the ability, the depth of that consciousness, which we’re, and which will get ignored insofar as we’re recognized with the bodymind or different type of adventitious options of embodied expertise. 

So, Nondual Shaiva Tantra then ended up being fairly influential all the best way down to the current day, even when the supply of the affect is now not remembered. So in fashionable yoga, for instance, individuals will invoke ideas that they don’t understand initially come from this custom of Nondual Shaiva Tantra: ideas of oneness; or the universality of consciousness; or the notion that the physique is the temple of the deity. It is a instructing discovered on this custom.

MT: Yeah, let’s simply pause there for a second, due to course, we’re calling this Nondual Shaiva Tantra, and as of late that may be lumped collectively within the basic class of Hinduism. However we have now one other massive nondual custom lumped collectively in Hinduism, which is, after all, Advaita Vedanta. And each of those are “Hinduism.” And each of those are nondual, however after all, they’re very totally different. And I’m simply curious if, in a quick approach, you’ll be able to assist us to disambiguate these two types of nondual apply.

CW: Yeah, and it is a advanced query due to the truth that Advaita Vedanta, over the past eight hundred years, absorbed lots of Tantric affect. So the type of Vedanta that individuals have interaction with, at the very least in India–setting apart for the second the generally referred to as Neo Advaita of Western practitioners. Indian Advaita Vedanta is deeply influenced by Tantra because it seems immediately and has for lots of of years. And that obscures the basic variations between these two types of nonduality. 

And a thousand years in the past, these variations have been stark as a result of Advaita Vedanta posited a singular absolute consciousness referred to as Brahman, which didn’t have any Shakti. That’s to say, it didn’t have any dynamism. It didn’t do something, it was a pure witness, proper? So that is the best way that the Tantrikas criticized it, they’d say, Oh, your notion of consciousness is devoid of Shakti, whereas, within the Tantric conception of consciousness, it has inherent powers, energies, or potencies referred to as Shaktis, such because the Energy of Bliss, the Energy of Realizing, the Energy of Will, the Energy of Appearing, and so forth. 

And so in line with Tantra then, the One Consciousness really does rework itself into the substance of every expertise. And it is a dynamic course of by which it contracts into the type of an expertise, after which expands as soon as once more into its full potential, after which contracts into the type of the following expertise, though this oscillation or spanda isn’t totally perceptible to most acutely aware brokers with out deep reflection. Whereas within the Vedantic view, there isn’t any exercise in consciousness, and the notion that there’s exercise is an phantasm. So, due to this fact, the world isn’t actual. It’s an look, very like a mirage in a desert or mistaking a rope for a snake, there really isn’t any snake and there by no means was a snake. It’s only a cognitive error. Whereas in Tantra, the world is actual. It’s an actual transformation of consciousness. It’s nothing however consciousness, and but it’s an actual transformation of consciousness.

So on this approach, Tantrikas honored variety, and Vedantans dismissed variety, which is a reasonably stark distinction that had real-world implications, as a result of Tantrikas have been non-renunciate, as a result of they have been world-embracing of their perspective as a result of every part on the earth is a type of the One and deserves to be honored as such. And for Vedantans, the One by no means really turns into something aside from its transcendent, absolute nature.

So it’s really a bit laborious to elucidate as a result of for the Tantrikas, within the course of by which consciousness transforms itself into the substance of any expertise, it by no means really loses its transcendent character. It doesn’t grow to be much less divine by remodeling itself into the substance of expertise. Nevertheless it does create these potentialities for misunderstanding. So though every part that seems inside expertise is solely a distinct vibration of the identical One, due to variety, we are able to mistake it for being one thing separate. 

So there’s some commonalities, but additionally some distinct variations that like I say, have largely been obscured. So for those who discuss to a contemporary practitioner in India, of Vedanta, they’re additionally studying Tantric texts, however calling them Vedantic texts, for instance, the Soundarya Lahari. They declare was written by the founding father of Advaita Vedanta, they usually declare it for themselves, though the truth is, it wasn’t written by Shankaracharya. It’s a Tantric textual content. That’s only one instance of what we would name the Tantrikisation of Vedanta. 

MT: It’s so attention-grabbing, there’s really fairly an extended thread, we might go on there. And possibly we’ll do it later on this discuss. However thanks for making that distinction. So, Nondual Shaiva Tantra isn’t Advaita and particularly early on, they’re very totally different. So now you have been about to inform us about this specific textual content from the Nondual Shaiva Tantra custom, The Recognition Sutras.

CW: Sure, The Recognition Sutras. In Sanskrit, the title is Pratyabhijñā-hṛdaya, which accurately means the Coronary heart of the Teachings on Recognition. It’s a textual content that teaches this actual Tantric nondual doctrine that I used to be simply indicating, and it does use the phrase Advaita. Or it’s shut synonym, Advaya in Sanscrit. And in reality, when this custom names itself, you understand what we’re calling Nondual Shaiva Tantra it calls itself Parameshwar Advaya-Vada, which implies the best way of the supreme nonduality of divinity. Okay, Parameshwar Advaya, which implies Advaita, Vada. And what they imply by that expression is one thing very attention-grabbing that as a substitute of this nondual view that excludes duality and says duality is flawed, it is a nondual view that features duality, as a legitimate degree of expertise, although, not an absolute one. So the distinction right here is that this nondual custom validates apply in a dualistic mode, as a type of stepping stone for many individuals to a more true or extra all-encompassing nondual consciousness. 

So if we put this in on a regular basis language that everybody can perceive, for those who expertise that the One common consciousness is one thing larger, wider, or deeper than your self, since you’re nonetheless recognized as a bodymind more often than not, then it is sensible to venerate that as a better energy, to make use of a typical phrase, till you understand that that’s, the truth is, what you’re in your deepest nature. So in different phrases, on this nondual custom, you’re not speculated to faux it until you make it and faux to an expertise that you simply don’t but have. And that truly, the worship of this larger energy can result in the conclusion that you simply your self are that, in phases which are fastidiously prescribed in that custom. That you simply begin to acknowledge that your personal consciousness has the very same capacities and potencies of this supposed larger energy, that you simply’ve been venerating as one thing past your self. And so the sense of restricted or separate self dissolves into that higher context, which you understand is what you’ve gotten, the truth is, been all alongside. 

In order that’s why it’s the best way of upper nonduality, a nonduality that features duality and varied ranges of duality inside itself, subsumes them, in addition to finally transcends them. 

So this doctrine is defined at size on this textual content, which we name The Recognition Sutras as a result of it consists of twenty sutras, with commentary by the writer of the unique sutras. So it’s one entire textual content, and to take the sutras out of that context is flawed, and a few authors have accomplished that. However actually, they should be taken in gentle of the commentary on the sutras composed by the writer of the sutras. So he composed all of it as one singular textual content. And though it’s extremely profound, this textual content is definitely a abstract of much more abstruse philosophy. 

So you understand, there’s a convention in Nondual Shaiva Tantra referred to as the Recognition College, the varsity on methods to acknowledge your self because the deity that you simply have been beforehand worshipping, as if nearly separate. So Pratyabhijñā means recognition, the popularity of your consciousness because the common consciousness. So this abstract is definitely far simpler to learn than the huge physique of labor that it’s primarily based on, and, importantly, contains practices. So within the translation I’ve accomplished, The Recognition Sutras, for those who make it to chapter 18. That’s the place you get all these great practices. And that is type of counterintuitive for some fashionable readers who need practices extra upfront, however within the conventional view, it’s important to perceive the context wherein these practices make sense. And so the view is laid out first after which comes the apply in the direction of the top of this elegant textual content. 

And by the best way, this textual content was composed within the Kashmir Valley 1000 years in the past, and many individuals take into account it part of the literature referred to as Kashmir Shaivism. And Kashmir Shaivism, is a little bit of a misnomer, as a result of it implies a convention that was particularly endemic to Kashmir, when the truth is, this custom was completely pan-Indian, not confined to Kashmir in any respect. However the identify Kashmir Shaivism happened within the twentieth century, to indicate the actually superb works of literature written by masters of Nondual Shaiva Tantra who occurred to reside in Kashmir. However they themselves very a lot knew that they have been commenting on and elaborating a pan-Indian Tantric custom that we name Shaiva Tantra.

MT: It’s additionally fascinating that these texts nearly didn’t make it all the way down to the trendy day. It’s a reasonably fascinating story how they even got here to know of them. Are you able to share a bit of little bit of that with us?

CW: Yeah, it’s attention-grabbing, as a result of evidently Buddhism, or Tantric Buddhism, specifically, survived the colonial interval significantly better, when the truth is, Tantric Buddhism, like the remainder of Buddhism was worn out in India with the Muslim conquests. And the explanation individuals know of Tantric Buddhism below the identify Tibetan Buddhism immediately is as a result of it obtained exported to Tibet, and different areas as properly, earlier than these conquests. So it’s vital to grasp that the Tantric Buddhism that we all know in its Tibetan kind, existed in nearly an identical kinds in India previous to that, and naturally, the Tibetans know this as a result of they know that their texts in Tibetan are practically all translations of Sanskrit originals, although, after all, they added their very own commentaries in Tibetan as properly. 

So simply as Tantric Buddhism was flourishing in India, so was Tantric Shaivism. And when the Muslim conquest got here, Tantric Buddhism was no extra in India. It was worn out extra simply as a result of it was extra institutionalized, you may say, and Shaiva Tantra was a bit extra grassroots. The apply context for Shaiva Tantra was primarily not establishments, however properties of owners just like the (24:19) Kula would collect within the residence of the guru or another senior practitioner. And never solely in these institutional contexts. 

So Shaiva Tantra survived the Muslim conquests, however in an attenuated kind, and continued to be attenuated over time as a result of within the context of Muslim rule, beforehand disparate teams that we now name Hindu type of glommed collectively into the development we name Hinduism. It’s an natural development, proper? That actually got here collectively solely within the final 800 years. 

And naturally, it is a entire can of worms as a result of individuals in India get very upset at Westerners saying this as a result of they need to say, properly Hinduism is 1000s of years outdated. And naturally, the part elements of Hinduism are 1000s of years outdated, a lot of them, however the notion of a Hindu id, which is frequent to Vedic Brahmins and Vaishnavas and Shaivas, that solely happened below Muslim rule. 

So, the purpose is, although, that this technique of attenuation continued till the Tantric custom was fragmented, the place to type of simplify it, the philosophy of Tantra survived primarily in Kashmir and a few different locations. Among the yogic practices of Tantra survived in another areas like Rajasthan. And the ritual practices of Tantra survived primarily within the deep south of India, like Tamil Nadu and Kerala, and different locations. And a few of the sexual practices of Tantra survived solely in Japanese India, Bengal and Assam. 

And so the custom fragmented as a result of all of those parts I’ve simply talked about, philosophy and yoga and ritual and embodied or sexual practices have been all a part of one custom, however survived in several areas, and gave rise to those misperceptions that now we perceive it was one custom. And it’s once we convey these disparate parts again collectively once more, that we see the true energy of the Tantric revelation. 

And somebody would possibly say, However don’t we see it in Tibetan Buddhism as properly? Effectively, Sure, and no, as a result of Tibetan Buddhism is a extremely monasticised, and institutionalized model of Tantra, which doesn’t protect all of those parts, the truth is. 

So every query you ask is, you understand, probably, I might go on for an hour, however they’re attempting to get these order responses. However yeah, these texts did survive. There’s a steady custom, even when it barely survived, proper? Nonetheless, there’s a steady custom of examine of The Recognition Sutras and various different texts all the best way down to the current day. Although, as the nice Tantric scholar Alexa Sanderson says the custom handed by the attention of a needle, the place it actually nearly died out about 100 years in the past, and ever since has been slowly type of making a comeback on this new international context.

MT: Good. So that you’ve been mentioning the similarities between Nondual Shaiva Tantra and Vajrayana Buddhism. And we talked in regards to the ritual similarity, or we might nearly name it the method similarities, and so forth. However what do you see as a few of the main variations, like vital variations? In all probability the general public listening to this are concerned in some Buddhist custom or one other. And as you’ll have seen, I’ve been speaking about Vajrayana-style stuff, or Vajrayana practices, i.e. Buddhist Tantra practices, on this system just lately fairly a bit. So what are some actually vital issues which are totally different about these practices or traditions?

CW: Effectively, that’s an attention-grabbing query, as a result of it type of relies upon which lineages you’re ; which lineages of Shaiva Tantra, and which lineages of Buddhist Tantra as a result of in some circumstances, it’s laborious to seek out any important variations. In different circumstances, you’ll be able to. So the variety is actually from lineage to lineage fairly than between these two very related Tantric traditions. Nevertheless, if we’re simply portray in fairly broad strokes, one massive distinction that always obtains is the function of bhakti or devotionalism, as a result of in Shaiva Tantra it very a lot has a spot. Once more, though it’s a radically nondual custom, at the very least in some lineages, nonetheless, the function of devotion was honored and emphasised as a result of as I stated, whenever you’re experiencing your self as a person bodymind, you expertise that your personal final nature is by some means one thing larger than oneself, proper, even when in different modes of apply or nondual, mystical states, that distinction utterly evaporates. So any person would possibly transfer between these totally different poles of expertise for fairly a while earlier than they lastly get established in steady nondual consciousness. 

And so, we see, for instance, a terrific authority within the sphere of Shaiva Tantra: the nice grasp Utpaladeva wrote radically nondual philosophy wherein once more, he strongly asserted that what you’re calling divinity or god or Shiva or no matter identify you set is completely nothing however your personal true nature, that there isn’t any actual distinction there. And but the exact same writer wrote devotional poetry to Shiva. So this appears to be a paradox. However from his personal perspective, it wasn’t. And he even says in his poetry, issues like, to paraphrase: Oh Shiva, let me proceed to have this expertise of obvious separation from you in order that I can style the sweetness of this whole love and devotion of me for you, and also you for me, though I do know that you’re me, and I’m you.

So that could be a function that’s not solely absent from Vajrayana. However devotional modes of expression are a lot much less frequent within the Vajrayana custom, let’s imagine. Although after all, Vajrayanists do carry out rituals as if a separation or distinction of self and deity have been actual, on some degree. So you understand, that’s one distinction. 

However once we’re wanting on the philosophy, there could be no noticeable distinction, particularly if we’re evaluating sure lineages. So if we’re evaluating the teachings of Dzogchen, for instance, with the teachings of the  Krama lineage, a few of which seem in The Recognition Sutras, then it’s laborious to see any actual distinction within the view in any respect. Let’s imagine there’s distinction within the apply, after all, as a result of the institutionalization of Tantric Buddhism within the Tibetan context, signifies that it’s important to undergo these phases of apply which are very strict. That means everybody has to do the preliminary practices earlier than they get entry to the next initiation that permits them to do totally different practices and so forth. Whereas within the Shaiva context, all the identical preliminaries are there, however any person who has enough aptitude might skip sure steps or phases or preliminaries, you understand, they don’t essentially should do 1 million repetitions of no matter mantra or 100,000 prostrations or no matter. As a result of in Shaiva Tantra, it’s acknowledged that the aim of those practices is to convey a couple of sure understanding or state of consciousness or expertise. And if that’s already there, then there’s no level in doing the practices that serve to convey that about. 

So this isn’t, after all, one thing that you may decide for your self. However fairly you want a guru. Historically, your guru says, Okay, you’ll be able to skip this step as a result of I can see you have already got the perception or the non-conceptual consciousness that this step is supposed to result in. And so possibly that additionally occurs in Vajrayana. However so far as I’ve seen, it’s far more inflexible, I suppose, by way of the phases of apply that one has to undergo.

MT: Sure. And apparently, traditions like Dzogchen and Mahamudra that come from these deep Tantric roots discuss the identical tales of their earlier incarnations of those lineages, befell in villages in a non-monastic setting and a way more fluid apply state of affairs the place the instructor is giving the scholar precisely what they want, fairly than following like a prescribed route of apply, simply as you’re describing. So I believe they acknowledge that early on, it appeared extra like what you’re saying the state of affairs was in Nondual Shaiva Tantra, so attention-grabbing. 

This to me is fascinating, for those who’re in Dzogchen, or Mahamudra, or Vajrayana typically, and even Mahayana Buddhism, not to mention Vajrayana Buddhism, the completely central core idea that have to be realized is vacancy, proper? Collectively, after all, with compassion, however vacancy performs this positively central function in every part. And but, we don’t see an excessive amount of discuss vacancy in Nondual Shaiva Tantra, at the very least not utilizing that phrase. And so I’m curious how does Nondual Shaiva Tantra type of method that very same understanding? Since these two are so related Buddhist Tantra and nondual Shaiva Tantra, I assume that they’re speaking about it otherwise, and but nonetheless addressing the identical concept.

CW: Yeah, properly, the truth is, what you simply stated isn’t true. (Laughter) That means to say that using the time period vacancy, that within the Krama lineage—which is also called Mahartha, Mahanaya—has many names. That is essentially the most radically nondual lineage of Shaiva Tantra. And it’s actually essentially the most fascinating traditionally talking, as properly, for all kinds of causes. However within the Krama lineage, you do have language of vacancy; shunya, shunyata, Mahāśūnya, continuously.

MT: I didn’t see lots of that in The Recognition Sutras. 

CW: Proper. As a result of The Recognition Sutras is weaving collectively teachings from a number of lineages, primarily the Trika and the Krama. And so the Krama is there as a type of esoteric core of the instructing. However he’s additionally, you understand, writing for an viewers that’s not essentially totally initiated into these teachings. So it’s not completely obvious, however for those who learn Krama sources on their very own, then the emphasis on shunyata is fixed and you may even learn some passages that you’d suppose if a Vajrayana particular person learn them he could be like, Oh, that is most likely from Vajrayana Tantra. 

So what’s the distinction? That is vital as a result of, properly, once more, generally possibly there isn’t any distinction, however generally there seems to be a distinction in that these Shaiva Tantrikas criticized the Buddhists as those that venerate the void as absolute, whereas we Shaiva Tantrikas, they are saying, are those that acknowledge that the last word realization is that of the complete void, that of the vacancy which is concurrently full, or the fullness which is concurrently empty. And so, from the angle of Shaiva Tantra, you expertise this radical void of pure consciousness, which is completely empty of all particularity, empty of all qualities, et cetera, et cetera. However you then’re speculated to transcend that, to the last word realization, which is that very same void, however now realized as pregnant with infinite risk. And the time period pregnant is usually even used when there’s a goddess-worshipping context within the background. 

And so the best way Kṣemarāja places it in The Recognition Sutras is that we should always understand this vacancy as concurrently, completely full, completely empty, each, and neither vibrating in absolute simultaneity. And so the language there may be nearly harking back to Nagarjuna’s Madhyamika Path. As a result of, you understand, it’s, he says each and neither, as a result of he doesn’t need you to grasp it merely as a coincidence of obvious opposites. That it’s, the truth is, the true nature of actuality utterly escapes the thoughts, and is totally non-conceptual. However once we enter into the thoughts and attempt to articulate what’s been realized, then we should use this paradoxical language of the vacancy which is full and the fullness which is empty. And naturally, right here the fullness in query is that this sense of elegant presence that spills over into any and all expertise in any respect. Now, possibly you’ll be able to inform me are there teachings on the Vajrayana facet, that echo this? That by some means say that the true nature of vacancy can be good fullness? Do you see that type of language someplace there?

MT: I’m undecided in regards to the language of good fullness. However the concept that–to talk in a really tough approach, very crude approach–that the void or vacancy is giving beginning to the whole universe, and that the type of the world isn’t in any approach separate from this pristine purity of the transcendental void. That’s the central instructing. And in reality, we are able to name that the primordial purity and issues like that, the void side, however one other phrase for it’s sugatagarbha, which you understand, completely properly, means a womb. So giving beginning is a central picture. And the concept that kind and vacancy should not in any approach separate is, after all, central. So I believe that if I’m not operating roughshod over the variations in language, I believe these are very related understandings.

CW: Yeah, completely. The purpose, at the very least from the Shaiva Tantra perspective, is that the masters of the custom don’t need practitioners to think about that the last word actuality to be realized is wholly transcendent.

MT: Precisely. 

CW: Yeah. So when you’ve got Mahāśūnya, as your final factor, you’ll be able to think about that because the void which transcends all embodied expertise. And naturally, it does, nevertheless it additionally instantiates as all embodied expertise, and so there’s this invitation to expertise the luminous void, proper, in a deep samadhi state the place there’s no sensory expertise as per regular, that for those who understand that that void, that vacancy is, the truth is, luminous, not with literal gentle, however with the potentiality to grow to be something, then whenever you enter again into sensual expertise, you’ve gotten the potential of recognizing that each one that you simply’re experiencing is that very luminous void showing as kind.

MT: That’s proper, and it is a central instructing in Vajrayana. And what to me is so thrilling about these deep nondual traditions. They’re not transcendent solely. In case you get into, for instance, early Buddhism or for those who get into Advaita Vedanta, they’re strictly transcendent. The world is a foul factor, it’s a delusion, and also you need to solely hand around in that transcendent Mahāśūnya. Yeah, proper. Like that’s the top purpose. Whereas these Tantric traditions are like, No, you are taking it additional, simply as in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, take it additional and see that the world is that this exuberant, utterly energized expression of that void and isn’t separate from it in any approach. So fairly than rejecting the world and going into some type of transcendent monkhood, we reengage with expertise, reengage with every part, reengage with the beautiful brocade of creation. Which leads me to what I believe is so attention-grabbing, additionally, with these nondual Shaiva Tantra practitioners and historic figures is that they’re very concerned with artwork and literature. And in reality, they write treatises, on aesthetics, and so forth. The precise stuff of creation and expression is centrally attention-grabbing, at the very least as I perceive it.

CW: Completely. And earlier than stepping into that a bit of bit deeper, let me simply additionally point out that, you understand, if we’re speaking about shunyata, or vacancy, additionally within the purely philosophical sense of denoting a doctrine of interdependence, after all, within the philosophy of Buddhism, vacancy and Pratītyasamutpāda are intimately linked, that every part is empty of its personal inherent essence, as a result of it solely exists in relation to all of the phenomena that it’s interdependent with. And if we’re speaking about that model of the phrase vacancy, which is after all, not unrelated to different usages, but when we’re speaking about that model, that too seems in these Shaiva Tantra teachings, particularly once more, of the Krama lineage, the place they are saying precisely because the Buddhists say, they are saying nothing has its personal impartial essence, though different Hindus, and that is after all, once more, the issue with the designation Hindu, as a result of others which are put within the Hindu basket, say the other, that every factor has its personal essence, that there’s a cow-ness that each one cows share, and so forth. However these Shaiva Tantrikas of the nondual stream have been saying that every part has just one essence and that’s consciousness, not impartial essences. However every part additionally expresses a distinct side of that one, on account of the way it’s embedded in all the assorted interrelationships and causes and situations. 

So the very motive that an object seems as an object and seems to have a distinct high quality from another object isn’t as a result of it has a distinct essence however as a result of its place within the matrix of relationships is totally different. However the entire matrix of relationships itself is emanating from this timeless house of pure consciousness, that emanates, holds, and reabsorbs all phenomena. 

In order that additionally pertains to what you have been simply saying about being engaged within the aesthetic world, within the sensual world. As a result of on this larger realization, you don’t have to enter right into a transcendent state to expertise the transcendent. You really expertise the transcendent in each sensual expertise. So for the Shaiva Tantrikas, that’s the last word; to be engaged in sensual expertise and savor the distinctiveness of every sensual expertise, whereas a hundred percent feeling the reality of the truth that what precisely you’re experiencing, in that second, is the Supreme Absolute manifest as that. 

So once we use language like Supreme Absolute, it sounds so eliminated, however oblique expertise, there’s no contradiction. No matter you contact, style, odor, hear, really feel, take into consideration, sense, is the One showing in that kind. So the revelation of the simultaneous universality and particularity is type of the place it’s at, for the proponents of this custom. And that’s why you don’t have to resign the world and so forth. Although after all, you do have to do practices that aid you to take a step again from the assorted misunderstandings that get triggered whenever you don’t but expertise the underlying transcendence. So it’s type of like, and possibly that is related in Vajrayana, nevertheless it’s type of such as you learn to expertise the transcendent, after which learn to expertise the transcendent within the imminent. So it’s type of very broadly talking, a two-stage course of: transcendence adopted by the expertise of the pervasion of the transcendent in all that was beforehand transcended. If that is sensible.

MT: It makes good sense. This is a crucial level that one type of nondualism we have been describing, what I in my very own colloquial language, referred to as Nondual 1, continues to be true, the transcendent sense of the void, or pure consciousness or no matter it’s one thing that we are able to contact, and in reality, is required, with a purpose to acknowledge what I’d name Nondual 2, which is that this imminent high quality that you simply’re describing. For most individuals, not everybody, however for most individuals, it’s going to be a two-stage course of. First letting go of a naive greedy across the kind world first, earlier than we are able to then re-engage with the world of kind on this radically remodeled approach. So I believe it is sensible. Once more, it’s not seen that approach usually, or at all times…

CW: You understand, we’re crystallizing one thing crucial right here as a result of that’s an important critique that these nondual Tantric traditions have of different types of South Asian spirituality is that followers of Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra or earlier Buddhism or early Advaita Vedanta, they only take the one step to the transcendent, absolute, after which that’s their purpose to only keep there, transcended. And the Tantrikas are taking the second step of the overall collapsing of the excellence with out shedding the related options of every that’s to say, the expertise of the overall oneness of the transcendent and imminent, however not by lowering both to the opposite, however by experiencing concurrently that the entire is in each half is one approach to put it. However after all, no matter approach we put it, it doesn’t seize it completely, as a result of that is merely past the classes that the thoughts can take care of.

 MT: Superb. So let’s come on again to this aesthetic function, the engagement with the creation, that’s such a signature for these Nondual Shaiva Tantra traditions.

CW: Completely. Yeah. The best Tantric grasp in Shaivism, or the one who historical past has kind of determined was the best Tantric grasp, was this determine Abhinavagupta, who lived in Kashmir 1000 years in the past. And he’s well-known for not solely writing voluminous works on Tantric philosophy, ritual, and apply, but additionally for writing voluminous works on aesthetics, poetry, dance, and drama. And in reality, on the earth of Sanskrit research, many students know him primarily in that area. And these are sometimes seen by students as separate domains. However after all, for Abhinavagupta and a few of his associates, they weren’t separate domains in any respect. And this brings us to a very vital level, which is that the entire–from this Shaiva Tantra perspective anyway–the entire level of getting the conclusion, that we’ve been speaking about in considerably philosophical phrases, is that it makes accessible to the practitioner the direct expertise of a type of elegant magnificence in all issues. 

And the best way I like to elucidate this, as you understand, within the Tantric custom, once we say every part is God, and we do have that expression on the Shaiva facet of the Tantric custom, particularly Na Shivam Vidyate Kvachit, nothing exists which isn’t God. However the issue is when Westerners hear this, they suppose we’re saying every part is sweet as a result of the Western conception of God is a lot related to the nice. And, after all, that may be a loopy factor to say that every part is sweet, struggle is sweet, and so forth, however that’s not what they’re saying. And so what do they imply, once they say every part is God? Effectively, they imply that, after all, that every part is a type of consciousness, as we’ve been saying. However in addition they imply that there’s the chance for the expertise of elegant magnificence, wherever and in all places. And that this isn’t straightforward to have till you’ve gotten nondual realization. And you then discover that magnificence exists in kinds that you simply’ve by no means suspected, that there’s a magnificence in decay and dying, in addition to in beginning and development. That we are able to really expertise aesthetic rapture in nearly any expertise of on a regular basis life, nonetheless mundane or nonetheless difficult. 

And so that is the assembly level of this aesthetic philosophy and this religious philosophy on this custom. And so within the aesthetic works, they’re referred to as Alankara Shastra in Sanskrit you get this instructing that Abhinavagupta was an enormous fan of, of 9 totally different types of magnificence. The so-called Navarasas, the 9 rasas the place rasa means aesthetic savor, 9 methods to savor magnificence, proper? As a result of rasa is expounded to phrases that imply yummy style, juiciness, and issues like that sweetness additionally, however right here it means aesthetic savor. 

However what’s attention-grabbing about this instructing of the 9 rasas is that it contains classes which are counterintuitive to Westerners, or most of them anyway. As a result of there’s the aesthetic savor doable in romantic modes of expertise, and of poetry and dance and drama, and so forth. And there’s additionally the aesthetic savor doable within the expertise of worry,

MT: The fear rasa.

CW: Yeah, precisely. Now, I need to be very clear, although, as a result of nearly everybody who talks in regards to the topic or tries to speak about it, confuses and conflates rasas with emotional states, and they aren’t. So the underlying emotional state known as the bhava. However the rasa is the expertise of magnificence, in affiliation with that emotional state. So in different phrases, if the artist transforms terror into artwork, then we’ll expertise a few of that worry by the artwork however in a transfigured approach. So it’s the expertise of aesthetic savor, this means to savor the gorgeous inside the horrifying or inside the romantic or inside the heroic or inside the comedic or inside even essentially the most shocking of all of the rasas maybe, is the disgusting. That which repels us could be skilled as a type of the fascination that consciousness has of itself showing in that kind. 

So this contemplation of the 9 rasas could be a very nondual contemplation that there’s this doable expertise of astonishing, properly, magnificence possibly isn’t fairly the fitting phrase as a result of it’s extra like aesthetic rapture, camatkāra, in Sanskrit, the fascination that consciousness has with itself showing in that kind. And that fascination has a component of what we would name love. And that’s vital, as a result of it’s not that we like horrifying experiences or disgusting experiences, however in a approach, we love them. And this idea is definitely confirmed by even all our fashionable artwork kinds, proper? As a result of for those who’re going to the flicks, or for those who’re fashionable artwork of assorted sorts, you then see, oh, wow, all these rasas are to be discovered there. And we as people like to be frightened in an aesthetic approach. Not that each one horror motion pictures are aesthetic. Some are simply, you understand, they’re not artwork by any customary that I might consider, however some are, proper? 

And Abhinavagupta makes that distinction. He says it’s solely true artwork if it elevates you into this elegant state, which is cathartic, which is expansive. However that elevation can happen on the idea of any of those underlying feelings. So I’d really argue removed from a distinction of aesthetic and religious philosophy that we’d like the one to grasp the opposite. And to grasp what this custom means when it says, Nothing exists which isn’t God. And by the best way, within the Sanskrit phrase there, the phrase which means God also can imply blessing, proper? So nothing exists which isn’t probably a blessing for those who’re capable of finding the wonder in it. And that makes far more sense than attempting to say that truly, every part’s actually good to know. 

So we’re not speculated to superimpose a constructive story onto struggling, we’re supposed to seek out the wonder in struggling. And certainly, we all know that’s doable, as a result of a lot nice artwork and poetry has come out of struggling. And the instructing right here is you don’t should be a poet, to seek out the wonder in struggling, you would possibly have to be a poet to articulate it. However you don’t have to be a poet to seek out it and expertise it. And I believe that’s a really, very highly effective instructing. And possibly that’s one that’s distinctive to Shiva Tantra. I don’t know if there’s something comparable in Buddhist Tantra. I haven’t seen it at the very least.

MT: There undoubtedly is, though I don’t suppose it takes such a distinguished place. However you’ve ignited my curiosity in a method, which is, are you aware of any, let’s say, poetry from this period, from the Abhinavagupta or Kṣemarāja eras that speaks to individuals within the fashionable West, that you may suggest? That isn’t simply so eliminated, that it will possibly solely be loved with nice effort at adapting it and translating it not simply linguistically, however culturally?

CW: Completely. So there’s Utpaladeva’s poetry, all these varied hymns he wrote have been collected right into a kind referred to as The Shivastotravali: The Garland of Hymns to Shiva. There’s a few good translations of that on the market. However much more could be the poetry which isn’t but printed in good translations, however which is coming and persons are engaged on it, myself and different students like Ben Williams and Hamza Stainton are engaged on this. And we hope to convey these out extra. This poetry once more from this Krama lineage I maintain mentioning as a result of I come to see it because the crown jewel of Shaiva Tantra, though it additionally incorporates a lot materials that is perhaps disturbing, in sure methods to some practitioners. And we are able to cowl that if you need. 

However the Krama has this elegant poetry, which weaves collectively devotion and religious or philosophical perception. And on this sense, the poetry is sort of distinctive as a result of it’s very wealthy in religious perception and reference to philosophical ideas. Nevertheless it’s not heady poetry, it’s very evocative and exquisite and devotional on the similar time. So you understand, ultimately, I need to convey out a guide with a number of translators concerned referred to as Tantric Hymns of Enlightenment, which presents this poetry of the Krama lineage. So bits and items of it are already on the market, right here and there within the public sphere, however not collected but and readily accessible. In order that’s one other massive subject to get into. And I want there have been good translations of all these supplies already out there, however simply to realize it’s there and extra of that will likely be popping out.

MT: And I simply should ask, what’s it that we would discover disturbing in a few of these poems?

CW: Not within the poems, however within the lineage which produced them. So the Nondual Krama lineage can be essentially the most radically transgressive of all of the Shaiva Tantric lineages. And people issues go hand in hand from the angle of Shaivism and I do know from Buddhism as properly in some kinds, that the extra nondual you’re, the extra prepared you’re to transgress social norms. And that each one is sensible, but additionally the Krama included type of quasi-shamanic practices. Now, some authorities interpret these by way of solely inside modes of consciousness exploring itself. However it is a type of interiorization of practices that actually have been accomplished at one level anyway, quasi-shamanic practices of intense apply for a lot of, many hours and invoking yoginis and dakinis and making blood choices, usually from one’s personal physique, you understand, reducing open the left arm to make a blood providing to the yoginis so that you could grow to be one in all their gang because it have been, and obtain their blessings and understand that these yoginis specific potencies of consciousness which exist inside you as properly. And these yoginis seem in these theriomorphic kinds, these half animal, half human kinds. And I’m simply scratching the floor of this sort of superb, bizarre, and wild side of the custom which actually has these shamanic roots, which offers in helpful possession, which some types of Buddhist Tantra do as properly.

MT: That is samavesha, not simply merely avesha. Am I right?

CW: Extra the opposite approach round, avesha refers to a possession and samavesha refers to a mystical expertise of immersion. The excellence isn’t fairly so clear-cut. That’s principally the excellence. 

MT: Fascinating. This results in one other subject earlier, you talked about how Tantrism is a motion that seems kind of on the similar time in a bunch of various religions. It’s a kind that seems and this begs the query was the shape pre-existing in, say, ritual magic or shamanic practices of underclasses in India or one thing? And so I need to ask that query. Do you’ve gotten any sense or does scholarship have any good sense of the place this Tantric mode got here from within the first place?

CW: Yeah, this was a query that preoccupied various students for many years, and what Sanderson lastly was capable of present–it’s important to learn some lots of of pages to evaluate all of the proof and grasp the argument–however he was capable of present that Tantra emerged organically inside Shaivism after which propagated in a short time to Buddhism and to different spiritual traditions. However that it’s a type of logical and natural outgrowth or additional improvement, I ought to say, of some themes and tendencies that have been already there in Shaivism, together with these practices with shamanic roots. So there’s these proto-tantric practitioners referred to as Kapalicas. 

MT: The cranium carriers. 

CW: Precisely. They flourished, particularly round yr 600, and for a short while after that, too. Yeah, they carried cranium bowls, they might eat and drink out of cranium bowls. They have been ascetics, although they weren’t homeowners. Proper, and that’s, after all, an enormous distinction. When Tantra developed, it developed as a householder, primarily a householder custom. However these proto-Tantrikas referred to as Kapalikas–they usually glided by different names as properly–their practices actually had a few of these quasi-tribal quasi-shamanic roots. And apparently, the options of these Kapalikas, they usually have been a hundred percent, you understand, Shaiva, however all of these options migrated into Tantric Buddhism as properly. So, the sporting of the bone ornaments comes from these Kapalikas, and various different options that lots of people suppose, are very a lot specific to Tibetan Buddhism. However they really come from this very early type of Shaivism. That’s not but Tantric, however as proto-Tantric, and did embrace some type of sexual ritual or consort apply. It didn’t but have this refined nondual philosophy, it didn’t but have key elements of Tantric apply, like deity yoga. So it’s not but Tantric. There’s much more that may very well be stated about that. 

However Buddhists who’re type of dogmatically dedicated to their imaginative and prescient of Buddhism actually get uncomfortable and even upset when this argument is introduced that the Tantric apply they maintain so pricey was initially borrowed by Buddhists from Shaivas. However the proof is actually considerable. And it’s to not say that they only copied–I imply, they actually did copy some practices–however they re-instantiated these practices in a Buddhist mode. They made them into very a lot Buddhist variations of these practices over time, you understand, so one might argue that they have been open-minded sufficient to comprehend, hey, what these Shaivas are doing over right here appears to be working. Let’s give it a attempt too. 

However we all know from the historic document that Tantra moved by the Buddhist sphere in India very quickly as a result of we have now data of two totally different Chinese language pilgrims who got here to India solely two generations aside. The primary one doesn’t point out Tantra within the early six lots of after which the second within the late six lots of says, oh, all of the monasteries in India are doing these mandala initiations, they’re doing these Tantric teachings, they’ve these Tantric mantras. And, you understand, he’s like, Wow, what’s this new factor? And that is simply within the house of fifty years, nearly each main monastery in India began practising Tantra. And this isn’t simply monasteries, however that’s the place we have now data.

MT: Wonderful. So Hareesh, Christopher Wallis, the place can individuals study extra about your work?

CW: Yeah. You understand, though our dialog has been very philosophical, and historic, in some methods, I simply need to point out that, for me, all of that’s so fascinating, however none of it could have worth if it wasn’t for the ability of apply. And as a instructor, you understand, I can generally train in educational modes, however I’m most considering instructing in these practitioner contexts. What’s most fun for me is seeing individuals have these realizations in an embodied and nonconceptual approach. Simply whenever you discuss them in phrases, after all, it’s gonna sound terribly conceptual and philosophical. However as you understand, the direct expertise isn’t heady in any respect. It’s not within the mind. It’s in consciousness, turning into conscious of itself. And the embodied expertise of that. That’s the place the true juice is, you understand. 

So I simply need to point out for whoever’s listening that my instructing after I’m working with practitioners is definitely fairly sensible, I believe my college students would say, and so if anybody’s considering exploring Nondual Shaiva Tantra as a apply, not only a philosophy, then I’ve plenty of assets and instruments for individuals. Primarily on my web site, tantrailluminated.org, which has a studying portal, we name it, that introduces you to all these programs and teachings, together with apply teachings that go pretty in-depth. So I’d say, you understand, I’ve various initiatives and books within the works and totally different web sites additionally. However that one tantrailluminated.org is the primary place for delving into these teachings.

MT: Past the books, the little little bit of your materials that I’ve encountered on the net has been actually, actually top quality and really cool. So I’d extremely suggest that. All proper. In order that’s it for immediately. Thanks for approaching the Deconstructing Your self podcast, Hareesh. Actually, actually admire you taking the time.

CW: And I admire your podcast a lot. I’ve listened to possibly a dozen episodes. And I believe it’s a incredible reduce above the standard within the podcast world. And I hope we are able to discuss extra as a result of I do know there’s many, many different subjects we are able to discover and customary pursuits that we have now and you understand, would possibly even be attention-grabbing to discover our apply historical past a bit of bit respectively, for instance, amongst many different subjects.

MT: Completely. Let’s make a date for that.

Associated